Curse

Highstorm · Nov 28, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

We all know that henchmen and other AI allies have thier own aggro bubbles. I'm sure everyone has had the experience of moving henchmen/heros/allies through an area with filled with enemy mobs.

It's a pain in the ass trying to sneak when you cannot tell how close your group is to aggroing various patrols so I was wondering why there isn't an option to see the groups aggro as a whole rather than just your own characters aggro.

The proposal is basically:

Can we have a faint pale yellow outline on the radar which shows the aggro range of the group in general as well as the personal one?

This suggestion would, I think, make travelling with allied AI slightly safer and more coordinated. To stretch the idea further, if it was implemented to include party players as well as party/allied AI then it could make some of the more gung-ho players think twice about dashing off and increasing the (now visible) group aggro.

MithranArkanere · Nov 28, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Well... if you don't make then overlap and add opacity...

If they where just circles with no inner color, that should be ok, but not if they combine opacities and turn the landscape in the radar not visible onder 8 circles overlapping and getting white.

Highstorm · Nov 29, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I had meant for it to be opace with no inner colour or overlap, simply a thin, unobtrusive outline of the outer aggro bubbles.

If I had a way to host pics I'd put up a couple of basic ones to show what I mean. Sorry about the confusion.

Praetor · Nov 29, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

This better be an option to turn on or off. If they do a sloppy job, everyone is going to hate the 7 extra circles blurring out their radar.
Photobucket and whatever else ppl link on these forums are free image hostings.

Highstorm · Nov 29, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

I'd imagine if it was implemented then yes, it would be a optional feature. After having had a look at photobucket since you mentioned it I have *hopefully* working examples. Please forgive the crudeness of the images, all I have to work with is paint but I think it gets the idea across.

The colour I mentioned earlier was a pale yellow, but in the case of the pictures I used a light blue as it stood out more on the sandier example.

I hope this makes the idea a bit clearer.

MithranArkanere · Nov 30, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Bingo, no inner opacity, that what was I meant.

Put an option to activate that in General Options tag and you are done.

Rera · Nov 30, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

/notsigned

This would replace skill acquired through experience. Good players can tell the aggro distance of their henchmen even without aggro bubbles.

MithranArkanere · Nov 30, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Yup, I can tell, you can tell (and I noticed it's a bit smaller than character ones) but not everybody can.

Why not to let them?

Would you remove free parking slots to people that need them?
Or elevators for people that can't use stairs?

Rera · Nov 30, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

You're comparing a game to parking slots and elevators? You're supposed to get good at games. Are you supposed to get good at running up stairs?

Your argument could extend to making anything in the game easier. For instance, why not include a little marker on your party window that warns you who is being targetted by the enemy? It would make catching spikes a lot easier, right?

A key aspect of good game design is allowing players to get better through experience, as opposed to having everything done for them by the game engine. The fact that your own aggro bubble is marked is good enough, in my opinion. If you want to use henchmen you should learn to judge aggro distances.

Elemental Cotton · Nov 30, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Rera just pretty much said everything, so I'll just say this: Making the henchmen's aggro bubbles visible would just clutter up the compass, and that's really distracting to me.
Also, if we were able to see our allies' aggro bubbles, some players would become panicky over it. "Hey, you're too close! Move away! MOVE AWAY or I won't heal you.."
Panicky players= not good.

MithranArkanere · Nov 30, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

XD I love Panicking players.

With my ele I use to stand still killing any monster that dare to target me while all of them die running for one place to another.

Since and option would be added to remove that. If you don't like it, you just remove it.

ArcaneApostle · Nov 30, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

You're not forced to judge your own aggro distance, so why are we forced to judge our braindead AI partners' aggro? It won't make the game imbalanced, it's supposed to be an option so won't clutter if you don't want it to, so I only see it as a way to streamline the PvE.

Why should we leave out a feature that can simplify things just because we can manage to get by without it with guessing and trial-error? By the same logic that we wouldn't need this, we never really "needed" a compass in the first place since good players will remember the terrain! Or an XP counter because players should keep track of how many enemies they've killed.

The aggro range is an arbitrary construct and has little to do with skill. Would anyone be willingly go through the game without it? You don't need it, you got skill and experience!

/signed

RSGashapon · Nov 30, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

If it can be done so the aggro bubbles merge rather than overlap, to prevent parts of the compass from being blotted out, then I'm all for it!

/signed

Antheus · Nov 30, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Make GW a single player game, and you get single player game issues.

Each player is designed to think for themselves. If wammo can't understand agro circle, you having access to it won't change that.

Heroes? Well, they work the same way, except that they are stupid.

This extended agro information is redundant from gameplay perspective. It adds nothing of value, and tries to solve one problem that's highly limited to certain types of gameplay.

Agro bubble has no effect in pvp for example.

As for PvE: It's redundant and undesirable. Instead of encouraging caution and pulling, it encourages exploiting agro range.

Overall, while completely valid request, it's redundant. GW interface is already busy, and there's little need for making it more complex.

This is still a game that's supposed to have a certain degree of uncertainty. Soon, a request will be made to place henchies via coordinates, then to script their pathing, and more. All of those are very valid as well, but ultimately move away from gameplay into AI challenge.

Not knowing agro bubble forces you to think about movement, to try to predict and to use tacticts and strategy when playing with AI. Every such artificial mechanism that gets added removes more of combat challenge in favor of perfectionistic maneouvring of AI.

Tyggen · Nov 30, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

/notsigned, read Reras posts.

Morrin · Nov 30, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I like it, I don't see it as adding more control to the Henchman, just making them more visible.

Were force to lead them around we might as well be able to see where they are when were doing it.

And as to experience being the great equalizer, there are certin things the henches do that no amount of expirence on behalf of the player will fix. This will simply give an edge to a very small blade, if you get my meaning.

/signed

Rera · Nov 30, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcaneApostle

You're not forced to judge your own aggro distance, so why are we forced to judge our braindead AI partners' aggro? It won't make the game imbalanced, it's supposed to be an option so won't clutter if you don't want it to, so I only see it as a way to streamline the PvE.

It does not follow that just because you can see your aggro bubble, you should be able to see others' aggro bubbles as well, regardless of whether they are AI or players. Taking henchmen was your choice, so any limitation imposed by their use are voluntarily assumed by the player. Each player sees his own aggro radius, no more, no less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcaneApostle

Why should we leave out a feature that can simplify things just because we can manage to get by without it with guessing and trial-error? By the same logic that we wouldn't need this, we never really "needed" a compass in the first place since good players will remember the terrain! Or an XP counter because players should keep track of how many enemies they've killed.

The compass allows the measurement of linear distance in a 3D game, and has nothing to do with memorizing terrain and game experience. The XP couter isn't related to skill either. You could very easily write down and recalculate your XP every time you kill something, but it's tedious and inaccurate. Saying that you don't need an XP counter is similar to saying that you shouldn't be shown how many attribute points you have left. Neither one is skill related - you could tabulate all of these values by hand.

Judging aggro distance, on the other hand, is not simply a matter of convenience. It is something you actually need to get better at. Case in point, this thread would not exist if the OP could actually visualize aggro range accurately, yet it is clear that good players do fine without it. Clearly there is a gap in ability between those who can and those who cannot.

What it comes down to is a decision by the devs about how much the game engine should help you. You are entirely correct that even our own aggro bubble isn't necessary with sufficient experience, however, the devs clearly felt that not having the visual aid would make the game too difficult. On the other hand, you have never been able to see the aggro bubbles of your teammates. I am opposed to the OP's suggestion because I believe it would make henching even easier than it already is, and it gives newer players, for free, a visual tool that veteran players acquired through experience.